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Among the Sleep
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plutomaniac Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Among the Sleep

Me too, I have been following then for a week now. It looks like they would totally agree with everything you say. I haven't played this game Journey that they are talking about because I don't have a SP3, only PC. That's sad...

Quote:This approach became the solution for Frictional Games, and part of what makes Amnesia so disturbingly successful. They decided to remove things like combat, death penalties and competitive gameplay (watch this great talk)
because these seemingly natural aspects of their game conflicted with Frictional Games core immersion goal. And thus, they replaced plain action (mastering a system), with real emotion (making it so scary on its own that it doesn’t matter if your death has no in-game penalties) —to great success.

Thomas, didn't you do another speach at GDC? Did this go public so that we can see it? Maybe I don't remember correctly.

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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 06:18 PM by plutomaniac.)
05-31-2012 06:16 PM
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Bridge Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Among the Sleep

(05-31-2012 04:59 PM)Thomas Wrote:  This post from the devs makes me extra interested in the game:
http://krillbite.com/blog/05/visioning-g...d-journey/
Very nice read but some of the thoughts I don't agree with completely. It seems like he is against difficulty in general as they ruin the experience when they are actually important aspects of many games. Most stealth games for example would not work if they were just emotional experience that can not be lost (there would be no tension), and yet many of these games do manage to be emotional. It's a tough subject to talk about I think, because the definitions and opinions are so varied, but the bottom line is that games need gameplay. If there is nothing for the player to do it might as well be a book or a film.

What I think needs to be done, instead of cutting out gameplay overall in favor of the experience, is make it integral to the experience. Difficult to do and rarely done right but not totally unfeasible. If you make the player care about what he's doing, the experience is going to be much more rewarding than if you just don't let the player do anything. Perhaps I completely misunderstood the article, but that's how I interpreted it anyway. All of the other points I agree with though.
05-31-2012 06:24 PM
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plutomaniac Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Among the Sleep

(05-31-2012 06:24 PM)Bridge Wrote:  If you make the player care about what he's doing, the experience is going to be much more rewarding than if you just don't let the player do anything.

I agree with the second thing about caring. This is a very common problem especially with games that seem to focus more on immersion and I have to admit that one or two times maximum I saw this in Amnesia as well. Certain puzzles were there just to delay you and in reality they did not have to do with the plot or story. Instead, if they had a meaning and not a delaying purpose then as you said the experience would be much more rewarding. However, I don't know exactly how this can always be done. But I don't think he meant that the player will not do nothing. I think he meant that the player must avoid doing stuff that are irrelevant because that's when he starts to lose immersion.

Thus I believe that such games should focus on the scary environment and care less about puzzles and tricks that will help you to just move on to see what happens in the end. However, you can not make this a rule otherwise the player will get bored eventually because of lack of activity. I conclude that someone, and I mean the developer, must find the sweet sport between feelings and actions, immersion and puzzles. I think that the Penumbra series failed at that sweet spot by focusing a lot more on puzzles. That's why Amnesia became so popular and that's why it is better(I have to say though that the Penumbra ending was way better in my opinion).

Indeed, this is a hard topic to discuss.

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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 07:13 PM by plutomaniac.)
05-31-2012 07:10 PM
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Bridge Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Among the Sleep

(05-31-2012 07:10 PM)plutomaniac Wrote:  
(05-31-2012 06:24 PM)Bridge Wrote:  If you make the player care about what he's doing, the experience is going to be much more rewarding than if you just don't let the player do anything.

I agree with the second thing about caring. This is a very common problem especially with games that seem to focus more on immersion and I have to admit that one or two times maximum I saw this in Amnesia as well. Certain puzzles were there just to delay you and in reality they did not have to do with the plot or story. Instead, if they had a meaning and not a delaying purpose then as you said the experience would be much more rewarding. However, I don't know exactly how this can always be done. But I don't think he meant that the player will not do nothing. I think he meant that the player must avoid doing stuff that are irrelevant because that's when he starts to lose immersion.

Thus I believe that such games should focus on the scary environment and care less about puzzles and tricks that will help you to just move on to see what happens in the end. However, you can not make this a rule otherwise the player will get bored eventually because of lack of activity. I conclude that someone, and I mean the developer, must find the sweet sport between feelings and actions, immersion and puzzles.

Indeed, this is a hard topic to discuss.
I think the absolute worst thing about in Amnesia (and most adventure games) is: when you stumble upon a puzzle, you know you must solve it. It's such a transparent game mechanic; you know that if you can interact in some way with the objects and it seems like something positive will result from the right interaction, you must do it. This almost always leads to sequence breaking. Just a quick example:

Spoiler below!
I already had the jar of acid and chisel/hammer before I even found the door out of the prison.

So, sometimes (and in practically every other P&C adventure game) I just had an inventory full of items that I knew had to be used in some meaningful way, otherwise they wouldn't be actual items. Amnesia is one of the better designed ones in this regard, because most of the puzzles are very logical and all of the items serve a logical purpose. I certainly didn't run into this often but it does happen on occasion because the player can choose in what order he gets the items, and it's distracting.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 07:22 PM by Bridge.)
05-31-2012 07:21 PM
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Thomas Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Among the Sleep

Quote: Thomas, didn't you do another speach at GDC? Did this go public so that we can see it? Maybe I don't remember correctly.
I will do a second speech at this years GDC Europe. Hopefully it too will come online for free.
05-31-2012 09:46 PM
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plutomaniac Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Among the Sleep

(05-31-2012 09:46 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
Quote: Thomas, didn't you do another speach at GDC? Did this go public so that we can see it? Maybe I don't remember correctly.
I will do a second speech at this years GDC Europe. Hopefully it too will come online for free.

That's great to hear. Can't wait. (Bring Jens with you at the stage Tongue)

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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 10:28 PM by plutomaniac.)
05-31-2012 10:27 PM
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Youcef Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Among the Sleep

(05-31-2012 10:27 PM)plutomaniac Wrote:  
(05-31-2012 09:46 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
Quote: Thomas, didn't you do another speach at GDC? Did this go public so that we can see it? Maybe I don't remember correctly.
I will do a second speech at this years GDC Europe. Hopefully it too will come online for free.

That's great to hear. Can't wait. (Bring Jens with you at the stage Tongue)
Great indeed ! I look forward to this.

05-31-2012 10:46 PM
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SquigPie Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Among the Sleep

The lack of death penalties killed Amnesia for alot of people, you don't feel scared of a monster when it does virtually nothing to you, even if it kills you.

It nearly killed Amnesia for me as well.

Also, "What we can learn from Dear Esther", is to do the exact opposite of that game and have our games have actual gameplay and not just pretentious narration to walking around.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2012 09:21 PM by SquigPie.)
06-01-2012 09:06 PM
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Adrian Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Among the Sleep

(06-01-2012 09:06 PM)SquigPie Wrote:  The lack of death penalties killed Amnesia for alot of people, you don't feel scared of a monster when it does virtually nothing to you, even if it kills you.

It nearly killed Amnesia for me as well.

Also, "What we can learn from Dear Esther", is to do the exact opposite of that game and have our games have actual gameplay and not just pretentious narration to walking around.

For me personally, real fear does not arise from loosing fictitious points in a video game. If the game on the other hand does a great job at sustaining tension and the correct atmosphere, I'll tremble through the whole experience regardless of penalties.

Regarding Dear Esther, the medium obviously also need games focusing on mechanics & interactivity, but I don't find it expedient to discard the "not-games" approach. It certainly appeals to a lot of people, and everyone does not have to like everything. Games still have a long way to go, so for the sake of learning lets encourage diversity instead!

By the way; Adrian from the Krillbite (Among the Sleep) team here. It's great to see you guys discussing our project!
(This post was last modified: 06-02-2012 11:48 PM by Adrian.)
06-02-2012 11:45 PM
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RawkBandMan Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Among the Sleep

A 2 year old? Since when could 2 year old's walk like the kid in this video can?

I've come to learn to not fear the living, nor the dead... But the monsters that hide in closets.
06-02-2012 11:51 PM
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